Starter whine

[ch47guy2008]

Damn, Houston, you sure make me laugh.....makes all of this bearable....as for the bike.....Well, a maintenance officer that was close to retiring in my 'Guard unit was "cleaning out his garage." Since he had, (I'm guessing here....) 7 or 8 bike projects in there all in various stages of teardown and reassy, (he said he was selling some stuff to help finance these other builds, and make more room...), I just picked the bike that I had seen him ride to work every so often awhile back. The bike is a 1980 FXE, (frame and engine serial numbers matched), 80 cube motor, with 36k on the clock. It looks pretty complete, but REAL tired, and he gives me six boxes of misc. parts to go with it, along with the promise of "technical support" when needed. Now my riding buddies are all ribbing me pretty good, (twinkie riders, all of them, myself too....2007 Dyna), calling me the 'old man' (I'm 49), telling me I'd never get it finished, etc. etc. Now I would just LOVE to make them all eat a big sh*t sandwich, (hence the 93" kit I installed).... I did all of the work save for the paint, powdercoating, and the lower end. I think the wiring was the hardest part for me. With the old harness just so brittle, I replaced it with an Ultima unit mounted under the seat that replaces (almost) all the relays, breakers, etc. Really cleaned up the bike nice, although, it did take me three days and tons of heat shrink. Sold the old cast wheels and mounted fresh rubber on some laced up rims, new front, (and rear) discs and calipers. Went with a GMA unit in the back. New stainless braided brake lines, new cables, grips, bars, hand controls, rear fender, seat, dash, instruments, mirrors, etc. etc. Rebuilt the S&S Super E carb, rebuilt the front end with new fork tubes and a seal kit, I think you can see where this is going.....I wanted a classic old bike that was pretty quick yet dependable. Just gotta get over this last hurdle and get some miles on her before I take her out for cruise night....

[ch47guy2008]

Bikerjim44--thanks for forwarding me that link...the pics are MUCH better than whats in the old oil stained manual the PO gave me. Thinking of taking a sick day tomorrow to work on this. Bruce

[Hawg Ryder]

Hmmmm....I missed this thread. Here's my comments:

I have looked at every picture you posted...I have looked and looked again. Know that the inner primary is not the issue. There are a couple of styles of inner primary, but early or late...the typical rear wheel chain drive inner primary starter housing mount is the same. The only oddball inner is the one used for the early 80's rear belt drive setups...and the bolt pattern for the starter housing is different. So if your starter is bolting up...that shouldn't be an issue.

Now...as far as the way your manual starter lever is assembled. That looks fine. I will pretty much guarantee the cut spring is a replacement...of stiffer value than it came with. Those manual starter levers have had more than a few issues with that "return" spring being too weak....once ya' engage the starter and the bike fires...ya' let off the lever...and the bendix gear doesn't disengage 'cause the stock spring is a weak piece of shit and it ain't got enough pressure to help release the starter drive...you let off the lever, but the shaft in the lever assembly just stays out, sticking in place with it's contacts still closed to the starter relay. While we're on the subject...when you install one of those manual levers, you have to wire it up to control one of the big fat round heavy duty starter relays....you wire the battery direct to the line side of the relay, the load gets wired direct to the starter...it has to be one of those big fat automotive style relays that can handle the current draw of the starter. The typical rectangular or square relay won't handle that much current.

OK, on to the next details. It's hard to see for sure, but it appears your outer primary is fine. Don't worry about the "8 hole" vs "9 hole" issue...that won't make one bit of difference. However, can you verify that the starter shaft support bearing boss in your outer primary is lower than the primary cover gasket surface? The early primary cover up through '69 has the bearing boss on the same plane as the gasket surface....the '70 and up primary cover has that bearing boss a noticable bit lower than the gasket surface. If your bearing boss is below the gasket surface as it appears, you're fine there too.

The starter bendix and the way you have it assembled to the lever is fine too.

So that leaves one last funny looking item in your pictures. In this picture below...see how the shoulder on your starter shaft spacer (the part that actually fits into the support bearing in the outer primary)...see how that shoulder is just about dead even with the primary gasket surface on your inner primmary? That is EXACTLY what happens when you install a '65 - '69 starter pinion shaft in a '70 and up driveline. The '70 and up starter shaft is about 1/2" longer overall than the earlier one. The had to extend both the tranny mainshaft and the starter pinion shaft when they introduced the '70 and up engines which have the alternator added to the motor shaft...in order to keep the primary alignment true with since that alternator required a longer engine shaft to make room for it. I swore I had the starter pinion shaft lengths noted in my library, but I'll be danged if I can find that info. And since I'm a "kickstart" kinda' guy, I generally give away or swap whatever electric start parts come my way, so I don't have any shafts laying around to measure. Does anybody out there have a late model (or early for that matter) starter pinion shaft they can measure? I know your "tech" guy said your shaft is a late model...but if I had a single joint for every bit of misinformation I've heard given out by all of the "tech" folks in this world, I'd overshadow the entire pot production of all of Mexico for a full year at least. If you do have the correct shaft...then something is up with that aftermarket starter assembly internal spacing...cause what I'm seeing just ain't right. There is NO WAY your bendix gear can properly engage the ring gear without another 1/4" or so of clear space between the gear and your shaft spacer. That shaft spacer should stick out beyond the gasket surface...it's supposed to be almost fully seated into the support bearing, just short enough to fit the thrust washer between the spacer collar and the bearing boss.

[IM80HD]

I just measured the jackshaft that came out of my '80 FXE and it is 6 7/8" long tip to tip.

[ch47guy2008]

Hawg Ryder--had to stop reading HoustonCh73 rebuild thread....he does have....an excellent attitude and a great sense of humor! Onto the starter issue. I measured the starter shaft, comes out to be 6 and 15/16" long. I was informed earlier today that this IS the longer of the two shafts, but, like you said, tech guys aren't always correct. Its also why I assumed I had the wrong inner primary, or didn't have the clutch hub fully seated. Taking a measurement from the edge of the starter gear to the edge of the ring gear, was, like you suggested, about a 1/4 inch. At this point its got to be the starter. I didn't want to go that route as its a new unit the PO gave me with the sale of the bike, it bolted right up with no problems, and, it spins the motor like crazy, (when it did work), but without any paperwork or part numbers to research, (the starter housing is void of any such markings), it looks like its my last option. I've heard that "All Balls", Accel, and Tech Cycle make good aftermarket starters for Shovels--looks like I'll go that route. I'm still not done researching this issue yet. Before I whip out ye ol' credit card and get stung by another hefty shipping charge out here, I've got to make sure there isn't anything I'm missing. Many thanks to all who contributed! I hope I was, in the least, a bit entertaining....thanks again all, will keep you folks posted as events warrant. Mahalo, Bruce

[ch47guy2008]

Thanks IM80HD.....looks like I've got the right shaft for sure. I guess the tech guy I spoke with today was correct. Thanks for confirming that for me. Bruce

[ch47guy2008]

Pics for Hawg Ryder--Yeah, I see what you mean about the outer primary cover. The boss with the bearing pressed into it is definitely lower that the edge of the cover. I'd say about 3/8 inch. I tried shimming up the end of the shaft with thrust washers, (three of them), thinking that might work, even though the book only shows one...but that didn't work either. I'm going to take another look inside that starter gearcase tomorrow. The PO told me it was an Ultima starter, but again, with no numbers/markings to verify, maybe its a cheap imported knock off part. Or.... maybe I missed something else. Good night all, and thanks again for all the help and support! Bruce

[Hawg Ryder]

I can't say exactly what the problem is, but you're on the right track. Just an FYI - when you install a '70 or newer outer primary on a '65 - 69 model...you do indeed have to stack 2 - 3 "extra" washers on the end of the shaft spacer to make up for the deeper outer primary bearing spacing. Everything you describe is exactly the same issue as having too short of a shaft. Maybe that custom starter assembly requires it's own oddball shaft?? Heck if I know at this point...but at least you know you ain't crazy, that stuff is not lining up with the ring gear as it should.

Let us know what you find!!

[HoustonCH73]

Again, I really like that starter. I think you should man up and go kick only.

[81cheeto]

A good starter wine is Boons Farm.